Stoneybrook DT Pictures, 2006

Posted by: hobbyhorse23 Jun 14 2006, 12:28 PM

These are the pictures from the Stoneybrook Driving Trial where my 33.5" six year old gelding Kody and I recently competed. It was held in Beavercreek OR and you can read all about our experience if you missed it at this link: http://minihorse.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=60431&hl=. I'm sorry it took me so long but I just hate resizing and cropping all these. Anyway, here they are. No pictures from dressage as I only got video but cones was held immediately after so we looked exactly the same.

Kody bending nicely as he approaches Obstacle 20...


Going through with perfect style...


And three photos going through the "U"-




Doesn't he look nice?


Then he spent a lot of the day making people think I had given him a heart attack...


And snoozing (it was a long trailer ride you know! I figure he was about 8 naps behind at that point)...


And letting me snooze with him. We spent about 45 minutes this way.


When he woke up he had admirers...


And got to scare a big horse (Kody squealed just after this and the drafter jumped and ran! )...


Then he was tired again and we both chilled out by the truck.



More in next post...

On Sunday all the VSE's got warmed up in the rain for marathon


And we were off!


Coming out of the first hazard which was scaled just for us...


And walking to the finish line 5km later

to get our green card signed

and get our picture taken!


For those who are shopping our harness is an Ozark Mountain carriage harness with some resizing done locally, our cart is an Edgeman easy entry with No-Flat tires, and the marathon vehicle is a Hyperbike from Graham Carriage Works in OR. Those 'Bikes are way too much fun!! Kody thought he could fly in his.

Here's a closeup of the harness:


That's the kickstrap you see crossing over the breeching, it's made of Betathane by Iowa Valley Carriage but blends right in. I will not always use it to compete but for now as Kody is learning not to buck when he gets excited it stays on. After one or two demonstrations on Sunday morning everyone understood WHY, too! LOL

Hope you enjoyed!

Leia

Posted by: whitney Jun 14 2006, 12:53 PM

FINALLY the PICTURES! You both look wonderful!




Is that Hyperbike as comfortable as it looks?

Posted by: ClickMini Jun 14 2006, 12:56 PM

Leia, those are gorgeous! I am so excited for Happs this weekend, but I am not entirely well...had a run to the ER last night with kidney stones. Keeping fingers crossed for a quick "passing" otherwise I will spend the part of the day not competing "under the influence."

Posted by: hobbyhorse23 Jun 14 2006, 01:07 PM

Yes, I'd have to say it is. Those new angled stirrups made all the difference for me with how comfortable I was. The funny thing is it feels exactly the same as sitting in my car so I felt naked without a seatbelt! LOL

Oh no! Amy, you'd better get better or I will do this to you

Seriously, I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. Did they try that new ultra-sonic thingy they do to break them up faster?

Leia

Posted by: Sterling Jun 14 2006, 01:38 PM

Great pics...you guys look like you're having so much fun!! Thanks for sharing your day with us and letting us take a peek! Job well done as proven by the look of satisfaction on your little Kody's snoozing face!

Posted by: susanne Jun 14 2006, 02:38 PM

Leia,

Great pics! I'm at this moment delirious with CDE lust...and you're not helping, LOL!

My back is sighing in relief looking at the back on your hyperbike...and I'm curious about the stirrups.

I assume the hyperbike is only used in marathon?

Also, is your harness the regular carriage harness or the more expensive CDE version?

Posted by: hobbyhorse23 Jun 14 2006, 03:15 PM

That is of course the POINT, Susanne! If I make you guys crazy enough you will give up and start driving and come give us some competition. I figure by the time we get you and Mingus going training level I will be preliminary so I'm safe to egg you on.

I told you the Hyperbike had a back these days. Honestly I can't imagine how anyone could stay in the older version considering how much I use the muscles in my legs to brace myself against the seatback during fast turns, etc. I use mine only for marathon but that's because I'm unwilling to lose points for presentation. Also, how the heck would you drape your driving apron with the horse between your knees? I find Kody works better and steadier with some weight behind him and with him set in front of the cart you can get a good look at how he's moving and how engaged his hindquarters are- something that is a bit more difficult with the 'Bike. But the thing is absolutely priceless for trail drives, hauling to lessons on rainy days, deep footing, steep slippery hills, anything and everything where a normal cart is a hassle. I initially looked at the Hyperbike for Kody so he wouldn't have so much weight behind his weak stifles coming down hills on marathon, but in the end the convenience sold me and I bought it for me! PM me with specific questions on the stirrups.

Good question. It's the original, regular, $400 leather carriage harness. I LUST after the chain browband on the CDE harness but other than that I think this one really does well enough. I've gotten a lot of compliments on it from harness-makers who've seen it in person.

Posted by: susanne Jun 14 2006, 04:09 PM

Thumbtacks?

Actually, one of the things I love about CDE is the presentation...the elegant turnout. You look quite classy in the dressage segment. I'd especially enjoy that, but I have to figure out how I'm going to swing all these carts!

I love the photo of you and Kody by the truck, where he can barely hold his eyes open!

Posted by: Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too Jun 14 2006, 04:17 PM

Leia those pictures are wonderful. We've got to get Blue going, I want to do CDE too

Posted by: joylee123 Jun 14 2006, 04:22 PM

What an awsome little horse! You guys are quite the pair That one picture where you're in the Dressage arena, Kody is bending so beautifully in the corners GOOD JOB!!! You two are a match made in heaven

Posted by: Margo_C-T Jun 14 2006, 04:25 PM

GREAT photos, Leia! Gosh, just look at all of that GREENERY!! Such a far cry from what we have to deal with around here, especially with our ongoing drought.... !
Looks like you all had a BALL-that's the best part! Does look like a good little harness for the $$-tell me, is that a treeless harness saddle? And, where did you get the pad? I like the fact that the kicking strap goes over the breeching hanger strap, instead of just where the crupper buckles in-seems like a better spot to me! Did you have to have the kicking strap sized, or is that a standard miniature horse size? (I have never but once had one of my own horses kick up/buck in harness,but after the incident with a friend's horse, when he 'blew up' and took off bucking and kicking sideways, and all that resulted from that(!!), I think a kicking strap is a VERY good piece of 'preemptive insurance'!) Sandee seems very good to deal with, too.

Posted by: maryann Jun 14 2006, 04:57 PM

We drive in shows and we are not familiar with CDE driving. I noticed that you are not running an
over or side check. or a martingale. Is this so the horse can use his head more for pulling on
uneven turf? Is there any time that you would use either of the above ? Your harness is just beautiful
I love the browband. I hate to be so dumb about this and ask so many questions but I am kind
of intrigued with the CDE shows. Would you want a horse that is very low key and calm or would
you want a horse with a little flair and finesse for this type of driving?? One more question . How.
would I find out about CDE driving in my area in North Carolina.?Thanks maryann

Posted by: GREENWOODMINIS Jun 14 2006, 05:42 PM

LOVE your photos!!!!!! Great job!!!!

Posted by: CheyAut Jun 14 2006, 10:09 PM

GREAT pics and BEAUTIFUL horses!!! Those are GREAT!!!

JEssi

QUOTE(maryann @ Jun 14 2006, 06:57 PM)

I can answer, as I do them, too (well, I do ADTs, which are one day versions of the 3 day CDEs.

You can NOT use checks or martingales in combined driving, they are NOT allowed. And you MUST use breeching.

My Chili Pepper (you can see him in my avatar) is NOT low key and calm. In fact, we RACE around the cones and hazards, he LOVES it. HOWEVER, you DO need a VERY obedient horse, one that will work calmly when you need him to... VERY controllable. After all, the first phase is dressage, and that weighs heaviest on your score. My previous horse was VERY low key and calm, did fine in cones and hazards, but lacked a good enough amount of impulsion, and didn't bend well, so he wasn't good for dressage. So, for what kind of horse... I would say a good moving, controllable one. Not lazy, but not crazy ;)

As for finding it in your area, you should join your local driving club. You can find them on the American Driving Society's website, http://www.americandrivingsociety.com/

Their list of local driving clubs direct link: http://www.americandrivingsociety.org/ADS_Driving_clubs00.htm

They list three for N Carolina:

Carolina Carriage Club
P.O. Box 816
Tryon, NC 28782
864-457-4038

Central Carolina Driving Club
1708 Phelps West Rd
Fuquay Varina, NC 27526
919-552-4618

Moore County Driving Club
Box 282
Southern Pines, NC 28388
910-692-8863

Jessi

Posted by: nootka Jun 14 2006, 11:45 PM

Wow, thanks so much for the pics! I loved seeing your Hyperbike how it's different from mine, yet I agree, there is nothing finer for rougher terrain and/or just plain comfort.
Mine is the older style, but it does have a nice seat, just not quite as posh as yours though I will say I've yet to have any back pain from it and I rode in it for hours at a time while 8 months pregnant and all the way up to that time.
You guys look great and Kody is amazing! Congratulations on your experience. I truly hope to get to one of these and Mousie will just have to learn to love it, too. I think Kyan would be an awesome CDE horse (Mouse's little brother), too.


Likely I will need a LOT of help to tackle this as I'm not sure I'm good with lots of rules and details.



Liz

Posted by: hobbyhorse23 Jun 15 2006, 12:17 AM

Thank you so much everyone! I promise we'll get Mingus and Blue and Mouse going and hit all these events together next year! Susanne, I'm still fairly pleased with the carriage harness as what I initially bought it for, which is to say a harness that can do everything. It's not perfect- I'd like to change the breastcollar a little bit for breed shows and change it a different way for CDE's- but overall it is a very versatile, very nice harness. Substituting a deep v breastcollar at CDE's would solve it perfectly for most people...Kody just doesn't happen to like mine. But you don't get to complain about carts- I figure cart-wise for me I need a closed-wheel show cart for shows, a wooden road cart for dressage/cones, the Hyperbike for marathon and trail driving, and a Frontier easy entry for training and goofing off with more than one person. If I magically got all those I'd sell the Edgeman to someone with a slightly bigger horse for whom the weight wouldn't be such a pain. It's a very "sturdy" cart! LOL. But it can be done with one vehicle, trust me.

Consider it a tradeoff. Under all that lovely green grass was slick slime from the two solid nights of pouring rain. People were tossing dice Sunday morning to decide whether or not to wear rain gear on course because one minute it was sunny, the next the sky was falling in little droplets. At least we don't have to worry about bathing our horses. Just stick 'em outside with a little shampoo and they're done!

It is treeless, which is why I always use a pad with it. I just got this waffle pad from Smucker's through Chimacum Tack for $9.95 for the saddle pad, $18.95 for the breastcollar pad. I wanted something that wouldn't get nasty with sweat and would look a little more "carriage" than "show." I did order a tree on my synthetic harness but found it made the entire harness so much heavier that I really didn't like it. I came to the conclusion that for minis, treeless is not necessarily bad if properly padded. Kody certainly prefers soft things that contour to him. The kicking strap seems to work where it is and is easily removable before a class without having to undo harness, I haven't gotten to try the other configuration but sometimes wish mine was a little further back. It is a standard mini size although I did specify the width to make sure it blended in with my current harness, I don't know if Sandee had to modify it to match or not.

Maryann, don't feel bad for asking questions! You have no idea how flattered I am that you are interested enough to post and ask. CheyAut was better able to answer the question about driving in your area than I would have been. I will however add to the other answers to make them a little more complete.

Sidechecks are actually permitted in training level but that is mostly so young drivers with determined horses that want to graze can still compete while they are learning. I have never seen anyone actually go in with a sidecheck as it is severely frowned upon. Overchecks and martingales are prohibited as CheyAut said because they don't fit in with what dressage is all about. In the show ring what you want to see is that finished picture- a horse with their head in a particular carriage, moving a particular way, and altogether looking finished. Dressage is all about the journey. Each level is designed to show that your horse is coming along through the training process and learning to use their body. First they must learn to balance and bend and maintain a rhythm, stretching their topline and reaching down for the bit if you ask them to. A little hard to do with a check, you know? Eventually you turn that into collection and extension and all the rest and the horse will develop a raised topline and compacted frame without the use of artificial aids to teach them to "hold a pose." There is nothing wrong with doing it that way, but like so many things the aids can be misapplied and become torture devices. ADS prefers to avoid that possibility and force you to do it the longer and ultimately more correct way. (I know, we get a bit stuffy about that. I've checked Kody up semi-loosely and taken off his breeching and you know, in the short term he doesn't care a whit! ) So basically the only reason you would ever use a sidecheck at a CDE is to prevent grazing.

As to what kind of horse you'd want, the best description I ever heard said that a good CDE horse is brave and energetic, yet willing and responsive. You want the kind of horse that will go where you point them but won't blunder blindly into a wall if you aren't paying attention. The kind who can go all day but will stop and stand for an hour if you drop the reins, and the kind that will move on if you ask but doesn't feel the need to race around like a maniac just because he can. He should enjoy the feel of a good workout as much as you do. A more timid horse can be given confidence through careful training or even put in a pair with a braver horse, and one who is always in a hurry can be taught to relax but both will be a lot more time-consuming than a horse who is ideal to start with! Sane, sensible, sound, and sensitive would also sum it up.

It looks so scary to start with but I'm finding the more of these I do, the simpler the rules really turn out to be. You know all the VSE people in this area will help you! Come volunteer at the VSE driving trial in September, then attend one of the "Intro to CDE" clinics Maureen holds twice a year. Those are priceless.

Leia

Posted by: maryann Jun 17 2006, 05:57 PM

Sorry I am late getting back to thank you for your answeres. Been a bad work week. Is there a book of
rules that I can get my hands on?That would keep me from asking such dumb questions on here and showing my ignorance. Would love to start getting my feet wet with this. Looks like fun and
much more chalengeing than just driving in a circle. Thanks again for all your answeres. Maryann

Posted by: Shari Jun 17 2006, 06:55 PM

I love the pictures! Looks like all were having lots of fun.

Your Hyper bike looks different than the one I tried and my body couldn't handle. Yours looks more comfy.

Maggie has been going really well and would have a blast at any VSE shows. Some day I will get her to one.

Posted by: BFS_Simon_Says Jun 17 2006, 07:11 PM

I feel really dumb asking this but what does a harness with a tree look like?

ETA: You guys look great. There must be a huge amount of trust between you and Kody for him to let you lay down with him, as someone else already said you two are a perfect match.
Congratulations

Posted by: hairicane Jun 17 2006, 10:24 PM

What wonderful pix as usual!! U both look great working. But I love his snoozing pix too, sure looks like he has no problem relaxing in his down time, lol. Keep posting. We finally have 2 horses cart trained and are driving them on trails, on the streetsides alongside traffic and they are getting steady wiith all that. Now that most of our 06 foals are here I am contacting the Fl. driving clubs and we are going to get started too. I love your posts!!!!

Posted by: sedeh Jun 17 2006, 10:51 PM

I just love, love, love your pics! Looks like you had so much fun! That hyperbike looks like the way to go on trails! I'm just learning to drive myself but CDE's look like a lot of fun. Hopefully we'll get there soon.

Posted by: Mnmini Jun 19 2006, 08:33 AM

QUOTE(hobbyhorse23 @ Jun 15 2006, 04:17 AM)

Just curious about the treeless vs. tree saddle. My marathon cart is nearly complete in construction, and I can hardly wait to go pick it up...yeah!! But, I'm still waffling on what to order harness-wise. I have my show harness, which is nice, and when using the breeching, certainly suitable, but the saddle is probably narrower than I would ideally like, and I would prefer buckle-in traces with at least a shaped breast collar and false martingale, to keep it from "riding" up. I'd kind of narrowed my search down to the synthetic harness by carriagehouse out of FL, and countrycarriagesusa. I had heard that some minis tended to "rub" when wearing the super V breast collar, so had been leaning towards the rolled, shaped breast collar instead, but had been under the impression that I would WANT the tree in the saddle? Which breast collar style do I want?

Anyone else have an opinion on this?

Also, anyone that could recommend a dressage coach in MN?

Posted by: Champ Jun 19 2006, 10:28 AM

It looks like you had a great time and I absolutely love the picture of him sleeping inthe grass

Posted by: Bighoop Jun 19 2006, 10:51 AM

Wow Wow Wow!!! How wonderful!! Awesome pictures!

Posted by: Mnmini Jun 20 2006, 12:13 PM

Hobbyhorse,


Loved your pics and info. Hopefully, you'll be able to give alittle more information about your choice of breastcollars, and harness saddles.

Posted by: hobbyhorse23 Jun 20 2006, 11:06 PM

Okay Mnmini, I'm here! LOL. Sorry, I crashed after work on Monday in a post-show fog from this weekend and spent all day at work today composing an answer for you around incoming calls. Here it is.

From Maryann:

The motto of all converted mini drivers- "Much more fun than going in a circle!" LOL. There's two things I can recommend. First of all, yes, there is a rule book. It's the American Driving Society book and it's very long and very technical, available in pdf format on their website. The second thing I think you'd find helpful is to go to http://www.minihorsecde.com. The site is designed to introduce the novice driver or die-hard breed show campaigner to the goals and requirements of combined driving. That's how I got started!

From BFS Simon Says:

Instead of being essentially a flat piece of leather that you could fold together or bend upside down if you wanted to, a harness saddle with a tree has a firm core that maintains the saddle's shape and keeps it from settling down on the horse's withers under pressure. It's just like the tree of a riding saddle and with the same purpose- to keep the weight distributed on the muscle and not the spine.

I am flattered by your comment about Kody trusting me and I hope it's true, but I've got to be honest- he lets complete strangers step over his head when he's flat out and doesn't care as long as they don't try and wake him up! The part where I know he loves me is the fact that if he hears my voice he wakes up and looks for me…he sleeps through anyone else. He's the first horse I've had that allowed me to lay down with him so I do it a lot.

From Mnmini:

What type and brand of marathon cart did you choose? ADS people are forever comparing and modifying their setups and I'm no exception! LOL. I went through many of the same thought processes as you did in choosing my harness. I spent all winter shopping for a new synthetic with the goal being to have one that was just like a Smucker's Deluxe but half the price. I wanted a well-padded wider saddle with a tree, a contoured, padded, buckle-in breastcollar with dual neck strap, padded girth and breeching, a certain type of crupper, chain browband, separate cavesson, all sorts of things. I swamped the inbox of my chosen manufacturer with pictures of exactly what I wanted. And they delivered a gorgeous harness that was exactly what I ordered but I ended up returning it. My horse suffers from "Princess and the Pea" syndrome and apparently is not fond of synthetic materials unless they are super soft. And now that I've returned the harness I'm forced to admit that the one I have is actually more than adequate for what I'm doing. Kody wonders why I fuss- he LIKES the nice soft leather breastcollar. I put on the wide padded deep V and he gives me this look like I'm strapping him into a gladiator suit.

However everyone knows Kody is not normal. Kody can be brilliant, but he has a lot of quirks and that's putting it nicely. Every other horse in the history of the universe seems to love their deep V breastcollar. I have noticed it does seem to fit better on a horse that either has a broad chest or is 34" or above, and appears to be most comfortable for them if the line of draft is slightly below horizontal and the martingale is tightened so that it fits snugly and the collar does not wiggle around. Your preference in breastcollars is going to depend on your horse's conformation, your cart's configuration, and how you want your turnout to look.

Be aware that the same harness maker works for both the Carriage House and Country Carriages USA. Both companies seem to have excellent customer service from my dealings with them and their products are very nice. If I buy another synthetic someday I will either give up and buy the Smucker's I've always wanted (but can't afford at $1,000+) or I will buy the CDE harness that Chimacum Tack designed and markets through Camptown Harness. That is a wonderfully soft, nice synthetic harness for under $500 and it was designed by mini CDE people, for mini CDE people. Almost every horse in my area uses one because Chimacum is a local tack shop and we all got in on the ground floor. There are some aesthetic things I don't like about it but it is incredibly well-designed and very comfortable for the horse.

I imagine the harness tree issue would also strongly depend on both your horse and the manufacturer of your harness. I'd read the recommendations and understood the logic so I ordered one because like you I was under the impression it was a good thing. The harness itself was rather heavyweight anyway so it might not have all been the tree, but it was quite solid. I was concerned about a couple of padding issues besides that and the more I hefted it, the more I realized Kody and I both preferred his treeless saddle. Now I wouldn't use the treeless without a pad to broaden it and keep the hard ends of the terret and check hook screws from digging into his back through the leather, but with one there's no problem at all. There is enough padding on the saddle itself to keep it from rolling around his barrel so it fits well and he is comfortable raising his back under it. Zilcos have a tree I believe and are quite nice, I've never heard complaints about the weight. Maybe it's plastic instead of wood? I'd have to check if the Chimacum harness does or not. In any case you've got to consider exactly what your goals are and how everything fits your horse. You just want to make sure above all that the harness does not place weight directly on their spine. Some horses or turnouts may require a tree to do that, others are fine without.

If I can answer anything else for you please PM me.

Leia

Posted by: Mnmini Jun 21 2006, 05:55 AM

Leia,

You have been SO helpful! I frequent the CD-L, and have been to the mini cde website (I agree it is excellent). From your description, I believe my show harness has a tree, though my old schooling harness does not, and I am forced to pad it as well, where I think it does OK, but it is not nearly sturdy enough (in my opinion, it's a little too cheaply made) to do anything too crazy in. I will check out the Chimacum tack cde harness. I'm pretty much looking for the same items you mentioned!

I see positives and negatives to having the separate cavesson. My show harness is separate. It DOES allow for a wonderful fit, but on these little mini heads, you end up with an awful lot of leather strapping going up the sides of their faces. Someone next to me at the R show last weekend had a nice simple show harness with the cavesson built in to the headstall, have to admit I liked the look, and if the headstall was customized to each particular horse, there wouldn't be an issue of getting the cavesson to sit right where it should below the cheekbone. I've almost decided that I want to start out with the padded shaped breast collar, for a more traditional look that will flow from dressage to marathon. Then, spring for the deep V maybe later down the road as an additional piece. My pony is 36", though not particularly wide. He HAS a chest, as in his legs don't come out of the same hole, lol, but I wouldn't call him wide chested either.

I've decided to go with the spring cart from Ahonen carriage. Standard shafts (Susan said she didn't think the marathon shafts would end up cutting any time, and we KNOW regular shafts, lol), bench seat versus the wedge (I plan on using it as an everyday cart too, and like to take on the occassional passenger), and the spring versus torsion to cut a little weight. I also wanted something metal, rather than wood, as I have a pretty show cart that I ONLY use at shows, so wanted something that I wouldn't feel terrible if it got a scratch or two.

Thanks for all the info. I'm very envious of all the cde opportunities in the NW, we seem to have to little here in the midwest:(

Posted by: hobbyhorse23 Jun 21 2006, 10:10 AM

I agree, it's a lot of leather. My carriage harness came with a separate cavesson and I didn't even question it because I'm used to large hunter bridles. Then I started reading driving books and learned that they often come threaded through the cheekpieces and I was like "Huh?" All the examples I was seeing sat too low on the horse's face and I didn't like that I couldn't adjust that. Heike Bean's driven dressage book said a separate cavesson was better anyway for keeping the blinkers close to their face (I don't remember why now and don't have the book with me) so I decided that was the way I was going to go. If I bought a show harness now though I'd get it with cavesson integrated for the simplicity of the look. I trained Kody to drive in an open bridle anyway so who cares if the blinkers gape away from his head for a minute? He isn't going to panic because he got a look at what's behind him.

Good plan. If he's 36" the collar should fit just fine no matter how wide his chest is or isn't. It's only the refined tiny guys like mine that a broader chest would help make it fit better! The angle of the shoulder cutout is too wide to fit Kody's shoulders quite properly.

Aw man, you took out all the FUN stuff! LOL. I want the marathon shafts just for the look and for the fact that you will usually have a lowered singletree with them. That allows for lower draft which is better for pulling, especially at speed and up hills. Your deep V or a full collar would be wonderful with that. Several mini people around here have marathon shafts and they all love them. Having seen what works for them, I would want to make sure the shafts were wide enough that when the horse turned into them they aren't going to poke into their sides. Nobody makes a Europad in mini scale yet! But if that's taken care of the horses seem to enjoy making tighter turns and that by itself makes you faster. Can you get the bench seat AND the wedge seat interchangeably? Again, that's a standard setup here. Having slid merrily across my bench seat last year on marathon and almost overturned because of it I WANT a wedge seat- want it bad. I ended up getting the Hyperbike which has the same security but I'm still sliding in dressage. Think I'll use some of that black toolbox liner stuff in liu of a wedge seat for now. I don't have a cart with a spring so I can't comment effectively on that. I know my torsion axle does add some weight but on the other hand it's balanced weight on the underside of the carriage. I've never driven without it so I'm not sure how much smoother it's really making the ride! LOL. All I know is that springs squeak and I like a quiet drive. But again, I haven't driven with a leaf or elliptical spring, only the spiral metal ones on a Frontier.

Enjoyed talking with you. I'll post about this last weekend by the end of the week when I've got the pictures edited and loaded.

Leia